Talk:Ave Maria (Josquin des Prez)

From ChoralWiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search

I think it was a good idea to disambiguate the Ave Maria...virgo serena, but I don't see the need to also disambiguate the Ave Maria...benedicta a 4; just naming it as Ave Maria a 4 would make it clear for everyone that it's the standard text (as is the case with the Ave Maria a 4 plus 2 and Ave Maria a 6). What do you think? —Carlos (talk) 23:46, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

AMa4 is thriftier, and maybe you're right, though I suspect that it once wouldn't have been that clear to myself! Wouldn't some users trying to navigate to ...virgo serena be unaware of the 'standard' setting, which is far less known? Happy to continue on Talk:Ave Maria (Josquin des Prez) Richard Mix (talk) 03:41, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
I noticed that Ave Maria a 4 (Josquin des Prez) was the original title of Ave Maria...virgo serena and had a few pages linking to it, that's probably why you avoided using that title. I've corrected all links to point to the new title and deleted it temporarily, pending a final decision. —Carlos (talk) 04:23, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
The Ave Maria...virgo serena is quite often, in my experience, programmed under that title, so that is a good title for the works page. The Ave Maria...benedicta a 4 is, to my feelings, best titled without the "a 4" because: (1) it is not needed to distinguish/disambiguate it further from other settings of the same text as currently titled, and (2) the Ave Maria a 6 with the "a 6" appropriately points out that it is a setting for something other than the nominal 4 voices people tend to expect. I would suggest Ave Maria...benedicta tu' (add "tu" drop "a 4"). – Chucktalk Giffen 04:47, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
"...benedicta tu" is a bit more elegant, but I don't think we ought to do without the a 4. Btw, thanks Carlos for tidying up, but, to clarify, my reasoning was that we should err on the side of clarity and even redundancy. For example, Gloria usually suffices as a standard title for stand alone settings but in the (hypothetical?) case that a composer set both a mass movement and a Gloria patri, my preference would be for the first be disambiguated and named "Gloria in excelsis (Composer)".
Not without great trepidation have I used this forum to venture beyond the immediate case, but if this turns into a horribly l o n g discussion maybe we'll at least get some useful general guidelines out of it! :-D Richard Mix (talk) 21:59, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
Ok, if such degree of disambiguation is really necessary then we must do the same for all Ave Marias by Josquin:
The "...benedicta tu" being the base text for an overwhelming majority of compositions, I still consider it superfluous, though. —Carlos (talk) 18:01, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
I agree, Carlos. Thanks for clearing the air. – Chucktalk Giffen 21:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

If I see Ave Maria...benedicta a 4 I understand at a glance that there is probably another 4 part Ave Maria, and this is standard in chant book indexes as well (I notice that "tu" is often dropped). Is it really superfluous to someone looking for 'the' Ave Maria who is unaware of a cpdl convention that only the least known text gets disambiguated?

I hope we at least all agree that 4 + 2 is silly. I think it should be merged to AM...Vs rather than changed to "a 6". Richard Mix (talk) 08:06, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

LOL this is getting funny, new suggestions coming up every time :)
Chuck, now I'm confused, hehe: you agreed with my initial suggestion (to disambiguate all of them), or with my last line (disambiguate only Virgo serena :)
Richard, I agree with you that the Ave Maria...benedicta a 4 should be disambiguated somewhere, but maybe it could be done inside the page (on its very top) instead of in the title. This solution has been used quite a few times before. As for merging or not the 4 + 2, whatever you both decide is fine by me. —Carlos (talk) 17:00, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Carlos, I mean to agree with disambiguating all of them.
Sylistic/grammar point: The ellipsis "..." should always be preceded and followed by a space, especially in an environment such as the wiki, where line breaking algorithms are virtually nonexistent. I'm also of the opinion that "a 4" should usually be set off from the title by a comma, thus Ave Maria ... benedicta tu, a 4, but that is not such a hard and fast rule, especially because of usage in other languages. On the other hand the space before and after the ellipsis is something that I will enforce.
I've already moved the 4 + 2 absurdity (of my own inane creation) to [[Ave Maria ... Virgo serena, a 6 (– Chucktalk Giffen 17:28, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Chuck, I'm still a little red-faced! "A 6" is less startling but also less descriptive, alas. As to the other changes, Virgo might get capitalized in some places (though not in Petrucci or New Grove), but I'm not sure why we have AM a 6 and AM [à what number?]. Isn't it best to have a title that lets people know for sure they're on the right page? Richard Mix (talk) 10:10, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi Richard, I'm probably the one to blame, for having implemented these last changes without further questioning. I thought we had reached some kind of "consensus" in the discussion above. The current solution is not what I consider the ideal either (I'm on the "the simpler, the better" side, you know), but some kind of consistency was necessary between the titles. I would not mind writing virgo uncapitalized. Regarding whether a completely unambiguous title is necessary: isn't it enough to disambiguate inside the page? a 6 is clearly linked to from the (a 4), and now I've also added a hatnote linking to this disambiguation page, too. I suppose that most people come to these Ave Marias from the composer page, where they are clearly indicated; the remaining that land on one of these Ave Marias via a Google search will surely see the hatnote on its top. What do you think of this solution? —Carlos Email.gif 13:32, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Hatnotes do the job; I'd forgotten about them and usually add dab after the title, thus. I'm no longer sure which is more intuitive; I still think I'd be more likely to miss the hat note at the top of the page, but if they were much less rare, maybe not… I'm in the maximalist camp: if you really want to get my goat, start moving Adoramus te, Christe a 3 (Orlando di Lasso), Adoramus te, Christe a 4 (Orlando di Lasso), Adoramus te, Christe a 5 (Orlando di Lasso) to Adoramus te, Christe (Orlando di Lasso), Adoramus te, Christe II (Orlando di Lasso), &c ;-) Richard Mix (talk) 02:07, 14 February 2015 (UTC)