Archived talk:Sandbox Page layout: Edition and works pages: JHF20071029

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Response to proposal

I would submit that the globe link should usually _not_ point to the actual pdf file, for the following reasons.

First, I think it should be as clear as we can make it to a casual user when the user is downloading a link from a file that is not physically hosted on a CPDL server, or is not otherwise under direct CPDL control. Since clicking on the ~.pdf link for a file which _is_ on the CPDL server will usually load the score image file, having an external link load a higher level page will help do this.

Second, because there will doubtless be some number of owners of files on external sites who decide to re-organize their sites, linking directly to files on the sites of these editors are likely to result in broken links. By setting the policy that links will go to high level sites, we can create a template for such external sites which provides the link to the external site's directory page, and which, in the event of reorganization of the target site, needs to be changed only in one place.

Third, external sites often times have explicit copyright provisions on, or linked to from, the download page of the site. Linking directly to the score image on a target site increases the possibility that a user downloading the score image will not see the copyright information.

Fourth, some site, like Di Marco's do not allow "deep linking", and by going to higher level pages in all cases, we keep the user interface more uniform.

I might be slightly more willing accept the proposal of #3713 as the recommended practice for a "non-personal" external site, than a "personal" one. As examples of what I mean by way of difference, I consider the Sibley Music Library's new on-line archive of public domain scores, the US LOC's American Memory Project, and the WIMA all to be "non-personal". I consider Marco-cipoo and Fr. Di Marco's sites to be "personal". Noel Stoutenburg 2315 GMT 30 Oct, 2007

WHILE THE GLOBE link Network.png should not usually point to a score image file (which term I use here for any file which produces a printed score, in whatever format) on an external site, in instances where the score image file is on a server under CPDL control, and the sound file is on an external site, I have far fewer reservations about "deep-linking" to a sound file on an external site. Noel Stoutenburg 0420 GMT 31 Oct, 2007

Try the challenge in admin posting:

Johnhenryfowler 08:02, 31 October 2007 (PDT)

EVEN THOUGH deep linking results in faster loading of the score image than linking to a higher level, I do not think speed in and of itself is adequate to override the other considerations I list above, the increased number of templates that deep linking would require, and the additional maintenance that will be required when they need updating. Noel Stoutenburg 2004 GMT 31 October, 2007

The point of my challenge was to demonstrate that without pointing right to the PDF file on the remote site you are throwing the user into a web page where they have to search to try to navigate a strange website, often in a foreigh language. This turns the job of finding the pdf file into a often daunting task. I bet on some sites the user never does find the PDF file. The difference in time is not milleseconds, but perhaps 5 - 10 minutes. In my example it is very difficult to use the search engine to find the pdf target. Even the library itself suggests linking to a page that has the target PDF file presented on it. Did you attempt to do the challenge ? Johnhenryfowler 16:58, 31 October 2007 (PDT)

I HAVE NOT yet attempted your challenge. Because of time pressures, even now, the furthest I've gotten with it is to put it on the "things to do" list. Still, For the moment, if I assume that the deep link loads instantly, and that I cannot find the score on the catalog page at all, I still will not agree that a deep link is ever a "good" thing; rather, the most favorable response you will get from me on the subject of "deep linking" is "it is always a bad thing, but sometimes all of the other options are worse". I also readily agree that the set of situations where all the other options to a bad choice are worse is large enough that I would not ban deep linking outright. For one thing, my aim here is not so much to argue against "deep linking" as it is in favor of clearly defining the boundaries of CPDL so that a user is clearly aware when those boundaries have been crossed. For another, if the boundaries are to be fuzzier at some points than others, I am more comfortable with fuzzy boundaries between CPDL and Sibley, (to name two specific examples), than between CPDL and a personal site, even my own. Noel Stoutenburg 0417 GMT 1 November, 2007