Archived talk:Sandbox Page layout: Edition and works pages: JHF20071029

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Response to proposal

I would submit that the globe link should usually _not_ point to the actual pdf file, for the following reasons.

First, I think it should be as clear as we can make it to a casual user when the user is downloading a link from a file that is not physically hosted on a CPDL server, or is not otherwise under direct CPDL control. Since clicking on the ~.pdf link for a file which _is_ on the CPDL server will usually load the score image file, having an external link load a higher level page will help do this.

Second, because there will doubtless be some number of owners of files on external sites who decide to re-organize their sites, linking directly to files on the sites of these editors are likely to result in broken links. By setting the policy that links will go to high level sites, we can create a template for such external sites which provides the link to the external site's directory page, and which, in the event of reorganization of the target site, needs to be changed only in one place.

Third, external sites often times have explicit copyright provisions on, or linked to from, the download page of the site. Linking directly to the score image on a target site increases the possibility that a user downloading the score image will not see the copyright information.

Fourth, some site, like Di Marco's do not allow "deep linking", and by going to higher level pages in all cases, we keep the user interface more uniform.

I might be slightly more willing accept the proposal of #3713 as the recommended practice for a "non-personal" external site, than a "personal" one. As examples of what I mean by way of difference, I consider the Sibley Music Library's new on-line archive of public domain scores, the US LOC's American Memory Project, and the WIMA all to be "non-personal". I consider Marco-cipoo and Fr. Di Marco's sites to be "personal". Noel Stoutenburg 2315 GMT 30 Oct, 2007

WHILE THE GLOBE link Network.png should not usually point to a score image file (which term I use here for any file which produces a printed score, in whatever format) on an external site, in instances where the score image file is on a server under CPDL control, and the sound file is on an external site, I have far fewer reservations about "deep-linking" to a sound file on an external site. Noel Stoutenburg 0420 GMT 31 Oct, 2007
Try the challenge in admin posting: http://www.choralwiki.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=6693#6693 Johnhenryfowler 08:02, 31 October 2007 (PDT)
EVEN THOUGH deep linking results in faster loading of the score image than linking to a higher level, I do not think speed in and of itself is adequate to override the other considerations I list above, the increased number of templates that deep linking would require, and the additional maintenance that will be required when they need updating. Noel Stoutenburg 2004 GMT 31 October, 2007
The point of my challenge was to demonstrate that without pointing right to the PDF file on the remote site you are throwing the user into a web page where they have to search to try to navigate a strange website, often in a foreigh language. This turns the job of finding the pdf file into a often daunting task. I bet on some sites the user never does find the PDF file. The difference in time is not milleseconds, but perhaps 5 - 10 minutes. In my example it is very difficult to use the search engine to find the pdf target. Even the library itself suggests linking to a page that has the target PDF file presented on it. Did you attempt to do the challenge ? Johnhenryfowler 16:58, 31 October 2007 (PDT)
I HAVE NOT yet attempted your challenge. Because of time pressures, even now, the furthest I've gotten with it is to put it on the "things to do" list. Still, For the moment, if I assume that the deep link loads instantly, and that I cannot find the score on the catalog page at all, I still will not agree that a deep link is ever a "good" thing; rather, the most favorable response you will get from me on the subject of "deep linking" is "it is always a bad thing, but sometimes all of the other options are worse". I also readily agree that the set of situations where all the other options to a bad choice are worse is large enough that I would not ban deep linking outright. For one thing, my aim here is not so much to argue against "deep linking" as it is in favor of clearly defining the boundaries of CPDL so that a user is clearly aware when those boundaries have been crossed. For another, if the boundaries are to be fuzzier at some points than others, I am more comfortable with fuzzy boundaries between CPDL and Sibley, (to name two specific examples), than between CPDL and a personal site, even my own. Noel Stoutenburg 0417 GMT 1 November, 2007
In the past, several of us editors have added instructions on how to navigate to the desired file under Editorial notes. Sometimes, the contributor provides the information. This seems to be a quite workable solution.
By the way, works from the Baker online Christmas songbook often are listed here with different titles than what is found on the website. For example, the work Wir Christenleut' (Johann Sebastian Bach) is listed on An Online Christmas Songbook only under the title of the (excellent) Catherine Winkworth translation We Christians May Rejoice Today, which links to the English translation in the Cantate BWV 40 setting. Morevover, that page links to the BWV 40 setting in German, as well as to English translation settings from the Christmas Oratorio and from Cantate BWV 110 (and those English settings are linked on their respective pages to the German settings).
-- Chucktalk Giffen 07:03, 1 November 2007 (PDT)
Chuck brings up a good point. Often the user is presented with a remote page which has works titles significently different from the CPDL "Works Page" name - language difference being one of the common differences. This makes it difficult for the CPDL user to find the music they are looking for. This problem goes away if a local copy is secured when the score is submitted. I would really like to empasize to the contributing user that they submit the PDF file to CPDL, and use a local link. We should communicate to the contributer that CDPL prefers local storage of at least the pdf (score) file. we don't currently tell the user that this is our preference. Johnhenryfowler 04:42, 2 November 2007 (PDT)
Yes, I think it would be good if we made it clear that we prefer (at least) the PDF be stored locally on CPDL. -- Chucktalk Giffen 09:06, 2 November 2007 (PDT)
I agree that we should prefer files to be hosted on the CPDL server (but still accept links to external sources). After the issues of Drew Collins's scores, I'm beginning to think that it would be a good idea for me to moved my editions to the CPDL server too...
As for using the globe icon on score pages, I favour the first example on this article page, also adding the External links category at the bottom of the page. By the way, I've indented this discussion so that people can distinguish between posts. I think that when the level of indentation reaches the other side of the page, it means that we've discussed the point enough! --Bobnotts talk 15:53, 2 November 2007 (PDT)


FOR ME, THE most important consideration is clearly indicating that the files are not on CPDL. As long as it is explicitly clear to the casual download user, which files are under CPDL control, and which are not (and the line is imprecise here; while all scores on CPDL servers are under CPDL control, a file need not be on the CPDL server to be under CPDL control, provided that CPDL has authority to archive the file, and the file generally conforms to CPDL standards and recommended practices, as adopted and modified in the future.), it is not a major issue exactly which method of indicating the line of demarcation is used. I would personally not include the information about what types of files are on external sites, because of the likelihood that this will lead to the necessity of maintenance work. Consider this: suppose the link is only the globe, with the legend, "multiple file types available." Now, if the owner of the external site switches from MIDI files to MP3's as the sound files on the external site, no maintenance is required for CPDL. However, if instead the legend reads, "~.pdf, ~.MID, and ~.NWC files available", is the same circumstance someone needs to do maintenance to reflect the change on CPDL.

As a matter of nomenclature and usage, I have written elsewhere that I think the current CPDL edition number should be renamed, perhaps to "submission number", and should continue to be available on the same basis as it is now, except that I would reserve the use of the phrase "CPDL edition" for files that are under CPDL control (as defined in the paragraph above), and I would devise a new numbering system to use for these files. For files on external sites (like those on the proposed page under discussion) if a word was needed, then perhaps "link" would work. Noel Stoutenburg 0845 GMT 3 November, 2007