ChoralWiki talk:Village pump
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- 1 Old discussion (2005)
- 2 2007
- 3 Organisation of hymns, hymn tunes and hymn settings on CPDL
Old discussion (2005)
What happened to CPDL forums ?
Good question, every wiki page has it's own forum (we are having one now). I will be placing one up as time permits (there are still several things to work on). Raf Ornes —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Admin (talk • contribs) on 13:13, 29 August 2005.
- The forums aren't working for me either. :\ --18.104.22.168 19:30, 20 October 2005 (PDT)
Request for score
I am the director of an a capella ensemble. We are desperately looking for Shakesperian Sonnets set in SATB a capella form.
Any help out there??
New wiki format
- Great Job! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs) on 18:51, 15 September 2005.
I think that some of the recently posted pages are not in the spirit of CPDL. Example is Gounod - Ave Maria which is only dispalyed as PDF page 1 and requires purchase to get any further - maybe the site which has downdoaded these does not realise this ! John Broadbent @ firstname.lastname@example.org —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs) on 15:41, 23 September 2005.
Looking for Duet
Looking for an S-A duet by Mozart, 2 - 4 min. sacred. Can I use ChoralWiki for this? I haven't been able to get a good response using Boolean or other search parameters. Thanks for help. Mary Shaw —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mary Shaw (talk • contribs) on 02:43, 11 October 2005.
- Try the search box using 'Mozart 2vv'. There is one SS duet on CPDL. - Raf Ornes —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 188.8.131.52 (talk • contribs) on 05:18, 11 October 2005.
Very intresting wiki site!... Thanx! --184.108.40.206 12:28, 15 October 2005 (PDT)
requesting deletion of talk:-
Would it be a good idea to delete that talk page? It has no page associated with it, and it is only used for spam. --220.127.116.11 19:34, 20 October 2005 (PDT)
- It is not possible to delete a page, but I can protect it, or keep it from being edited. Thanks! Admin
Lilypond and Mediawiki
I am trying to use Lilypond on my wiki. Simple examples work, but complex ones do not.
I have an error "Cannot find file for FontConfig cache". See http://www.wikilivres.info/wiki/index.php/User:Yann/test and http://www.wikilivres.info/wiki/index.php/Belle_qui_tiens_ma_vie
Thanks, Yann 16:11, 3 November 2007 (PDT)
Organisation of hymns, hymn tunes and hymn settings on CPDL
At present, there is no uniform standard for the organisation of hymns, hymn tunes and hymn settings on CPDL. Because more contributors are submitting hymns and hymn tunes recently, I believe it is necessary to formalise some standards before things get out of hand (having said that, there are already 439 pages categorised as "Hymns" on CPDL so perhaps I spoke too soon...)
I propose that the community discuss how hymns should be organised under the headings below then when a consensus has been reached, draft and formalise a standard.
I use the following terminology:
- Hymn tune - melody (nothing else)
- Hymn setting - melody and harmony (nothing else)
- Hymn - melody, harmony and words
- Hymn-Anthem - an extension of a hymn, usually including elaborate accompaniment, harmonies that vary verse to verse, descants, etc. (eg. Vaughan Williams' adaptation of "Old Hundreth - All people that on earth do dwell")
- Hymn meter the metrical indexing of hymns
- I added "(nothing else)" at the end of Hymn setting above. -- Chucktalk Giffen♫ 10:52, 16 November 2007 (PST)
There is a category for hymn tunes here. Some tunes have their own pages such as Old hundredth. I favour this organisation but instead of naming the tune page just the tune name, I would have the following format: "Tune_name_(Composer/Source)" for clarity (there is a tune called Welsh, I believe, which could get confusing with other pages). I don't think that there should be any editions on tune pages but I like the Lilypond extract on Old hundredth and I also think that the "Click for settings at CPDL" link is very useful. --Bobnotts talk 09:38, 16 November 2007 (PST)
- I concur ... "Tune name (Composer/Source)" is fine. I don't favor adding the Meter to the page name for Hymn tunes, because the Meter is spelled out and categorized on the page itself. In cases where there are multiple hymn tunes with the same name, disambiguation is always available.
- -- Chucktalk Giffen♫ 11:07, 16 November 2007 (PST)
How should these pages be named? I can see several possibilities:
- Name these the same as Hymn tunes (for the same reasons): "Tune Name (Composer/Harmonizer)", but only if there is no text underlay (in which it becomes a Hymn and should be named as below).
- -- Chucktalk Giffen♫ 11:14, 16 November 2007 (PST)
- EXCEPT THAT in the case where the hymn tune is by one known individual, and the hymn tune setting is by another, I suggest that the arranger should be named in the page title, and the composer of the original tune named in the general information. Wachet auf (Philip Nicolai) should be only the melody and setting Nicolai originally wrote; the page for J.S. Bach's setting of the chorale would be titled Wachet auf (J.S. Bach). In like manner, the title of the page for the hymn tune commonly known by most English speakers as "Old 100th", actually composed by Louis Bourgeois for Psalm 134, should properly be on the page "Psalm 134 (Louis Bourgeois)", Dowland's fauxbourdon arrangement of the same melody then might be on the page "Old 100th Psalm Tune (John Dowland)" and reference the tune page at the appropriate point in the page text. Noel Stoutenburg 1752 GMT 17 November, 2007.
- Would you link to editions from the tune_name page ? So if all harmonisations are on the same page, how do you cope with Rockingham(Miller) together with Caton(Webbe) and the similar pairing DukeStreet(Hatton) with Honiton(Webbe) (work in progress!) Tim Henderson 04:32, 17 November 2007 (PST)
Naming: again, there are many possibilities:
Set out as a standard score page but will also have under "General Information":
- Tune name
- Because the Tune name, Lyricist/Hymnist, and Meter will be spelled out and categorized on the page, I favor only the second form for listed above for titling hymn pages (after all they are choral works with text and should be treated the same fashion as other choral works), namely:
- "Title_or_text" (Composer/Harmonizer)
- -- Chucktalk Giffen♫ 11:00, 16 November 2007 (PST)
- I'm not terribly enthused over the need/requirement for standardisation . I don't use the category system much in searching for music but can appreciate that some people do. I tend to find the search box my principal route to things and this works for me as it returns the results regardless of which pigeon hole they are put in. Categorising hymns by text probably works better for the modern usage where there are relatively few tunes usually used for each text - but it becomes unwieldy as you go back in time (Temperley lists ~55 tunes for While Shepherds watched and back to the early 1600's you might be lucky to sing the whole psalter to more than a dozen tunes) Tim Henderson 04:25, 17 November 2007 (PST)
- While I concede that Chuch is correct when he asserts that hymns are choral works with text, I don't favor treating them the same as other choral works. While it is clear from the titles that "Blessed City, Heavenly Salem (Gregorian Chant)" and "Blessed City, Heavenly Salem (Edward Bairstow)" are different items, it is not apparent from the page titles that "O God unseen yet ever near (Giles Farnaby)", "O God unseen yet ever near (Thomas Ravenscroft)", and "O God unseen yet ever near (Days Psalter)" are different arrangements of the same tune, but that "O God unseen yet ever near (Thomas Ravenscroft)" is not. [This is not a misprint; Ravenscroft wrote two hymn tune settings associated with this text, a fauxboudon on the tune St. Flavian in Day's Psalter, and the tune Lincoln). Further, in order to determine which of several common meter tunes Ravenscroft is credited with is represented by a particular page, it is necessary to open the page. By contrast, it is immediately obvious that "O God unseen yet ever near (St. Flavian)" is different from "O God unseen yet ever near (Lincoln)". It is clearer for the average user to use the incipit of the text (or perhaps in rare instances, the title) and tune name, instead of incipit and composer. Noel Stoutenburg 1820 GMT 17 November, 2007
- This is why wiki has disambiguation pages: to present the user with the alternatives when there might be confusion (note in passing, disambiguation pages are not meant just for composers with the same or similar names, as Category:Disambiguation seems to suggest. This is part of the beauty of CPDL being a wiki. In addition, it is very easy to reference directly another page by putting a link on the page. -- Chucktalk Giffen♫ 06:22, 21 November 2007 (PST)
Consider how Cyber Hymnal catagorizes 6,600 hymns there
It is probably useful to have a look at the way the Cyber Hymnal has organized Hymns and Hymn tunes. After all they have 6,600 hyms catagorized there. Perhaps by understanding their categorization we can better plan what We need to have so we won't get locked in.
1. A hymn tune and set of lyrics go together to make a Hymn. The lyrics and the tune both have "creators"
2. A set of lyrics may be commonly sung with several hymn tunes ( because their have the same meter ) The usual pairing at Cyber Hymnal ( CH ) is the one that automatically plays, and the pictures of the author of the lyrics and the composer of the hymn tune appear (if available). The "alternative" hymn tunes are listed, along with their composer, score file, and midi.
3.At CH the music can looked up by looking up a "person" in the main menu. All the hymn tunes which have that person as either the composer of the Hymn tune, or the author of the lyrics appear in a list under this "Person" Clicking on a Hymn tune brings you to the page for that hymn tune. (It may be an alternative tune, or a main tune for the lyrics on the page) Hymn tunes are uniquely named to avoid need for disambiguation.
4.At CH the music can also be looked up by looking up a "meter" in the main menu. When a meter is selected a page with all the Hymn tunes using that meter are displayed. In some special cases only a single tune is listed, and in other cases ( such as the Meter "CM" ) hundreds of hymn tunes are displayed. "St. Michael" becomes "St. Michael SSWesley" in case where there is another tune with the name "St, Michael"
5.At CH the music can also be looked up by looking up a "Tune by name" in the main menu. In this case the multiple Hymn names are presented for the tune they go with. Going to the Hymn page by clicking on this link will answer whether this is the main set of lyrics, or an alternative set for this tune.
6.The topical nature of the lyrics is dealt with by the main menu choice, "Topics", where hymns (with the primary lyrics) are categorized by their nature of the lyric, Temperance, Hope, etc. Here the the Hymn Name is used. (Not the "Tune name").
7. A Hymn Tune may have a name, but no composer. (See Picardy) The tune may also have a set of lyrics that was historically associated with it, but now is not the "Common" lyrics. ( Picardy would have french carol lyrics...)
Johnhenryfowler 15:34, 16 November 2007 (PST)
Possible organization of Hymns within CPDL
"Hymn-Works-page" ---> Hymn-Name ( composer/harmonizer/arranger ) with Category for: (Meter), (Hymn-Tune-Name), (Hymn-Lyric-Topic) (Hymn-Works-page must have lyrics associated with it, and the score would have lyrics in it.)
- Sorry, John, but I don't agree with using the Composer of the Hymn tune for a hymn. It is traditional in nearly every hymnal to give credit to the composer/harmonizer/arranger of the tune. Who would you have listed in parentheses in the title of the following hymns whose tune is Old hundredth (all available at CPDL)?
- -- Chucktalk Giffen♫ 06:31, 17 November 2007 (PST)
- I guess I wasn't saying what I meant to say. I've incorporated your term above. (This is the person that coupled the lyrics with the hymn tune, right ?) :Johnhenryfowler 07:37, 17 November 2007 (PST)
"Hymn-Tune-Page" ---> Tune-Name ( Composer-of-the-Hymn's-Tune ) with Category for: (Meter) (Hymn-Tunes-page must have NO lyrics associated with it, and the score (if present) would NOT have lyrics in it, and might be displayed at top of page.)
The above data structure fails to identify the primary lyrics for a hymn-tune, or the primary hymn-tune for a set of lyrics (except where there is only a single hymn-tune associated with a set of lyrics, or visa-versa. ) The Meter is less problematic, since the picking of a tune or a lyric fixes the meter. The above structure would make it difficult pick a different tune for a given set of lyrics, but perhaps that's ok.
Johnhenryfowler 05:40, 17 November 2007 (PST)
I WOULD suggest that a hymn tune page would include in the general information a list of texts known to be associated with the tune. Noel Stoutenburg 1836 GMT 17 November, 2007.
Noel - This would be accomplished (automatically) by selecting the category of the "Hymn-tune", and since it is categorized in the Hymn page, a list of all hymn-names associated with this hymn-tune would appear. Kind of like what happens when the subcategory of "Carols" is selected and you see a list of all carols. (This is by virtue of each carol having the category "Carol" in each of the works pages.) Johnhenryfowler 12:14, 17 November 2007 (PST)
I SUBMIT THAT HAVING the list of alternate associated texts on the hymn setting page seems quicker, and more "user friendly". It avoids unnecessary mouseclicks, sort time, and pageloads, forcing the user to click on a category to see the alternate texts would require. Noel Stoutenburg 1301 GMT 18 November, 2007.
I'm curious who would research, and do the special editing involved to make this happen? I favor an automated system such as the category mechanism offers us. It doesn't require any special editing of the works pages. Johnhenryfowler 06:23, 18 November 2007 (PST)
IN RESPONSE I would note two things. First, the researcher would be the same without regard to whether the information is presented as a category on which the information seeker needs to click to see the information, or whether the text incipits are included on the page, so that the seeker merely needs to scroll down the page. As far as what the identity of the researcher might be, it would be the same as the rest of the Choral WIKI, (and for that matter, BIG WIKI, too) anyone who wished to register to edit, and who had a bit of information to add. A bit like the other information on a page; some composers have merely a framework of biographical information on the WIKI, while others have essays which are significangly more comprehensive, because in the latter case, someone had the information at hand, and thought it worth sharing on this WIKI. Second, while the the category mechanism might be "more" automatic in that it arguably involves less keystrokes by editors than typing out the incipit of a text, because the category needs to be edited into the page the same way the incipit would be, the category is no more automatic than the category. Further, as I write this, it seems to me that listing the information in the page as I propose makes it easier to provide somewhat more comprehensive information, most notably the source in which the association is made. While I understand how one could use the category system to permit the user to view alternative texts by clicking on the category, I don't presently see that the category system, as implemented on this WIKI will provide the source. Noel Stoutenburg 0934 GMT 19 November, 2007.
- Sorry, I don't understand this. What are the possible sub-categories of Hymn-tune ? I would favour having a space for the list of known texts in the general information area which could be expanded as people identify/want additional texts. Having 200 separate pages with separate texts for Old Hundredth doesn't seem efficient. Tim Henderson 12:52, 17 November 2007 (PST)
- It was just an example of how you can use a category to make a grouping (in the main CPDL menu under "Music Scores" you can select "sub-categories" from the text at the top (it's imbedded in the text), and one of these is "Carols". To make any piece of music appear in the list of carols you put in the page, and then the work's name appears in the carol list.) This same thing can be accomplished for lyrics for the same hymn-tune by using a. The subcategory of the hymn-tunes would be a list of all hymn-names that share a particular hymn-tune. This same mechanism is in place for hymn meters. Johnhenryfowler 15:28, 17 November 2007 (PST)
Lilypond excerpts for hymn tunes
Following Raf's implementation of inline Lilypond excerpts (See the Mozart Ave verum corpus), Philip Legge posted a Lilypond excerpt for Old hundredth. Sometime after March of this year, I added a few Lilypond excerpts for other hymn tunes, but these were lost in the crash. Following the crash, from time to time I have tried to repost those excerpts and others, but to no avail, since the Lilypond interpreter no longer seems to be available. For hymn tunes (melody only, no harmony or text), having a Lilypond version of tunes posted on their hymn tune pages would be a nice addition, making it very clear to users just what the tune is. -- Chucktalk Giffen♫ 06:56, 20 November 2007 (PST)
I HAVE NOT yet learned Lilypond, so when I wanted to show the equalist and rhythmic versions of Machs_mit_mir_Gott_87._87._88._(Johann_Hermann_Schein) I created ~.jpg file of the melody. When we had problems some fifteen months or so ago with certain MIME types not displaying correctly one of these ~.jpg files was affected, too, to I commented them out so that they don't appear in ordinary page views. If one edits the page, however, one can see how I applied them. I prepared similar ~.jpg files for St. Flavian, but I don't think I ever edited them into the page. Noel Stoutenburg 1850 GMT 20 November, 2007.
- I've considered mapking JPG files from PDF's using one of the standard converters available, but I've refrained from it, in part, because the JPG files would be considerably larger than the corresponding Lilypond code. -- Chucktalk Giffen♫ 12:57, 20 November 2007 (PST)
- FWIW, I DID it mainly as an experiment. Besides this, the problem with corrupting the file types (which affected the German Flag image for a time) also would (in fact, did) cause havoc with music image files, too. Noel Stoutenburg 1411 GMT 21 November, 2007
Writing from a state of confusion
Despite Chuck's valiant effort to bring some sense of order to the discussion, I fear that I am still confused about where we stand on a consensus about tiles of pages for hymn tunes, hymn settings, hymns, and hymn-anthems. At the moment, my preference for titles on these pages is
Hymn tune: Hymn tune name (Composer) [Note: if the composer of the tune is unknown, the source should be listed instead; if the tune is from a source where it did not originally have a distinct name, the name of the first associated text should be used. I believe both of these conventions are customary.]
Hymn setting: Hymn tune name (Arranger) [Generally speaking, there should not be lyrics on a hymn tune page; however, a tune which has an underlay which is not immediately obvious to the casual user might have one stanza interlined to show underlay).
Hymn: Name of text (Hymn tune).
Reviewing a number of the items in my collection of hymnals and songbooks, I find these to be most consistent with existing "dead tree" practices, and therefore most familiar to users.
Hymn anthems should be treated like anthems--the name of the Incipit of the text, and the name of the arranger. The name of the tune should be prominent on the page, in a place about which we can have a discussion at another time, and in another page. Noel Stoutenburg 1411 GMT 21 November, 2007