ChoralWiki talk:Village pump

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Welcome to the village pump discussions, a place to ask questions about or discusss any aspect CPDL not covered in the help pages. To ask a question, simply click on the tab marked "+" next to "edit". Please sign your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your message.

If you feel qualified to answer any of the questions asked here, of if you wish to contribute to a discussion raised here, please do so. If you prefer, you can ask questions on the CPDL forums.

See also: ChoralWiki:Village pump/Archive (2005) for past discusssions.

Lilypond and Mediawiki


I am trying to use Lilypond on my wiki. Simple examples work, but complex ones do not.

I have an error "Cannot find file for FontConfig cache". See and

Thanks, Yann 16:11, 3 November 2007 (PDT)

Organisation of hymns, hymn tunes and hymn settings on CPDL


At present, there is no uniform standard for the organisation of hymns, hymn tunes and hymn settings on CPDL. Because more contributors are submitting hymns and hymn tunes recently, I believe it is necessary to formalise some standards before things get out of hand (having said that, there are already 439 pages categorised as "Hymns" on CPDL so perhaps I spoke too soon...)

I propose that the community discuss how hymns should be organised under the headings below then when a consensus has been reached, draft and formalise a standard.

I use the following terminology:

  • Hymn tune - melody (nothing else)
  • Hymn setting - melody and harmony (nothing else)
  • Hymn - melody, harmony and words
  • Hymn-Anthem - an extension of a hymn, usually including elaborate accompaniment, harmonies that vary verse to verse, descants, etc. (eg. Vaughan Williams' adaptation of "Old Hundreth - All people that on earth do dwell")
  • Hymn meter the metrical indexing of hymns

--Bobnotts talk 09:38, 16 November 2007 (PST)

I added "(nothing else)" at the end of Hymn setting above. -- Chucktalk Giffen 10:52, 16 November 2007 (PST)

Hymn tunes

There is a category for hymn tunes here. Some tunes have their own pages such as Old hundredth. I favour this organisation but instead of naming the tune page just the tune name, I would have the following format: "Tune_name_(Composer/Source)" for clarity (there is a tune called Welsh, I believe, which could get confusing with other pages). I don't think that there should be any editions on tune pages but I like the Lilypond extract on Old hundredth and I also think that the "Click for settings at CPDL" link is very useful. --Bobnotts talk 09:38, 16 November 2007 (PST)

I concur ... "Tune name (Composer/Source)" is fine. I don't favor adding the Meter to the page name for Hymn tunes, because the Meter is spelled out and categorized on the page itself. In cases where there are multiple hymn tunes with the same name, disambiguation is always available.
-- Chucktalk Giffen 11:07, 16 November 2007 (PST)

Hymn settings

How should these pages be named? I can see several possibilities:

  • "Tune_name_meter_(Composer/Harmoniser)"
  • "Tune_name_(Composer/Harmoniser)"
  • "Tune_name_meter"

In any case, I think we should have all harmonisations of a hymn on the same page. --Bobnotts talk 09:38, 16 November 2007 (PST)

Name these the same as Hymn tunes (for the same reasons): "Tune Name (Composer/Harmonizer)", but only if there is no text underlay (in which it becomes a Hymn and should be named as below).
-- Chucktalk Giffen 11:14, 16 November 2007 (PST)
EXCEPT THAT in the case where the hymn tune is by one known individual, and the hymn tune setting is by another, I suggest that the arranger should be named in the page title, and the composer of the original tune named in the general information. Wachet auf (Philip Nicolai) should be only the melody and setting Nicolai originally wrote; the page for J.S. Bach's setting of the chorale would be titled Wachet auf (J.S. Bach). In like manner, the title of the page for the hymn tune commonly known by most English speakers as "Old 100th", actually composed by Louis Bourgeois for Psalm 134, should properly be on the page "Psalm 134 (Louis Bourgeois)", Dowland's fauxbourdon arrangement of the same melody then might be on the page "Old 100th Psalm Tune (John Dowland)" and reference the tune page at the appropriate point in the page text. Noel Stoutenburg 1752 GMT 17 November, 2007.
Would you link to editions from the tune_name page ? So if all harmonisations are on the same page, how do you cope with Rockingham(Miller) together with Caton(Webbe) and the similar pairing DukeStreet(Hatton) with Honiton(Webbe) (work in progress!) Tim Henderson 04:32, 17 November 2007 (PST)
Tune pages should have links to all the various harmonisations. Problably the Old hundredth page should be changed from a "what links here" to direct listing and links of Hymn settings using this tune. -- Chucktalk Giffen 06:41, 17 November 2007 (PST)
I want to integrate a Dynamic Page List (DPL) into a template for tune pages (you may have seen the experimentation on one of my user subpages) so that such a list would be updated automatically. Unfortunately, the version of DPL installed on ChoralWiki is too old to feature this functionality. I have sent an email to Raf requesting that he update the installation so we can achieve this. --Bobnotts talk 04:56, 23 November 2007 (PST)
Note that yesterday I worked on the Old hundredth page, putting in direct links to the settings and hymns that employ the tune (including the music files). The page needs a bit more work, but I'm currently enjoying the Thanksgiving holiday here, and may not get back to it until next week. Anyway, I think the page now begins to show the essential elements of what a hymn tune page should (or could) look like. -- Chucktalk Giffen 06:48, 24 November 2007 (PST)
I think that page looks good, Chuck, but (as I mentioned above) I am very keen to automate this process so that for every hymn tune page we don't have to add the links to tune settings and hymns manually (let me know what you think about this). For this reason, the direct links to scores via icons wouldn't be possible, and the Legend template wouldn't be needed. Also, I would remove the TOC - almost all tune pages will be so short that it's really not worth it. --Bobnotts talk 08:08, 28 November 2007 (PST)


Naming: again, there are many possibilities:

  • "Title_of_text_(Tune_name)"
  • "Title_of_text_(Composer/Harmoniser)
  • others...

Set out as a standard score page but will also have under "General Information":

  • Lyricist/Hymnist
  • Tune name
  • Meter

--Bobnotts talk 09:38, 16 November 2007 (PST)

Because the Tune name, Lyricist/Hymnist, and Meter will be spelled out and categorized on the page, I favor only the second form for listed above for titling hymn pages (after all they are choral works with text and should be treated the same fashion as other choral works), namely:
  • "Title_or_text" (Composer/Harmonizer)
-- Chucktalk Giffen 11:00, 16 November 2007 (PST)
I'm not terribly enthused over the need/requirement for standardisation . I don't use the category system much in searching for music but can appreciate that some people do. I tend to find the search box my principal route to things and this works for me as it returns the results regardless of which pigeon hole they are put in. Categorising hymns by text probably works better for the modern usage where there are relatively few tunes usually used for each text - but it becomes unwieldy as you go back in time (Temperley lists ~55 tunes for While Shepherds watched and back to the early 1600's you might be lucky to sing the whole psalter to more than a dozen tunes) Tim Henderson 04:25, 17 November 2007 (PST)
While I concede that Chuch is correct when he asserts that hymns are choral works with text, I don't favor treating them the same as other choral works. While it is clear from the titles that "Blessed City, Heavenly Salem (Gregorian Chant)" and "Blessed City, Heavenly Salem (Edward Bairstow)" are different items, it is not apparent from the page titles that "O God unseen yet ever near (Giles Farnaby)", "O God unseen yet ever near (Thomas Ravenscroft)", and "O God unseen yet ever near (Days Psalter)" are different arrangements of the same tune, but that "O God unseen yet ever near (Thomas Ravenscroft)" is not. [This is not a misprint; Ravenscroft wrote two hymn tune settings associated with this text, a fauxboudon on the tune St. Flavian in Day's Psalter, and the tune Lincoln). Further, in order to determine which of several common meter tunes Ravenscroft is credited with is represented by a particular page, it is necessary to open the page. By contrast, it is immediately obvious that "O God unseen yet ever near (St. Flavian)" is different from "O God unseen yet ever near (Lincoln)". It is clearer for the average user to use the incipit of the text (or perhaps in rare instances, the title) and tune name, instead of incipit and composer. Noel Stoutenburg 1820 GMT 17 November, 2007
This is why wiki has disambiguation pages: to present the user with the alternatives when there might be confusion (note in passing, disambiguation pages are not meant just for composers with the same or similar names, as Category:Disambiguation seems to suggest. This is part of the beauty of CPDL being a wiki. In addition, it is very easy to reference directly another page by putting a link on the page. -- Chucktalk Giffen 06:22, 21 November 2007 (PST)

What is a "hymn"?

No, I'm not trying to get all philosophical on you guys! I just think we need a little clarification on this subject. I refer to Jesu, gentlest savior (John Stainer), a recently added edition which John has categorised as (and explicitly stated in the edit summary is) a hymn, not a hymn setting. Correct me if I'm wrong, John, but you seem to suggest that this is the case because

  1. the title of the page is "First_line_of_words_(Composer)" and
  2. there are lyrics on the page.

However, I believe that to do this is to come at the point from the wrong direction. I advocate that a score page should reflect what is in the editions, not the other way round. The PDFs of this hymn

  1. have their title as the tune name, not the first line/first few words of the lyrics and
  2. don't have any lyrics on them.

I believe that a requirement for a hymn is that it should have the tune, harmonies and words (as I believe has been agreed above), so I would categorise John's edition as a hymn setting, primarily because it is a hymn tune with harmonies which doesn't have any lyrics on the PDF. What are everyone else's thoughts on this? --Bobnotts talk 02:06, 27 November 2007 (PST)

I agree. What appears is simply the harmonization of the 65. 65 tune Eucharisticus. Without words, it is not a hymn.
I posted a copy of "Eucharisticus (John Stainer)" with the title "Jesu, gentlest savior (John Stainer)" in hopes of clarifying what it is we are doing with the various pages for hymns. My recent hymn postings all have lyrics in the page, but NOT in the PDF score or source files. (The format you would find in "Hymns Ancient and Modern" where the words are printed below the notes, and there are NO lyrics between the staves in the score.) So does this make them a "Hymn Setting?", or does the presence of printed lyrics make the page a "Hymn" ? Bob has been declaring my additions "Hymn Settings" - which would mean the categories on the (approx) 75 hymns need changing. If they are indeed "Hymns" then they are all titled wrong - needing the first line of the lyrics in their title. Before we start changing all of them I would hope we are all on the same page! (Pun intended ;)) Farther down in this discussion I have tried to define the current pages we are defining for hymns, as well as some of the data items needed in these pages. Johnhenryfowler 08:22, 27 November 2007 (PST)
Let me clarify. Without words in the PDF (sheet music), it is not a hymn, at least here at CPDL. Unlike "Hymns Ancient and Modern", the words are NOT printed below the (PDF) score in Eucharisticus. Furthermore, there are many, many hymnals with the words between the staves, and I think that here at CPDL, we are not supposed to be in the business of defining or advocating a stype for hymns. As long as the words are on the sheet music page (PDF), then it's a hymn -- and if not there, then it isn't a hymn. Merely including a text in the "Original text and translations" (and I question the word "Original" on tune pages) without the text being in the sheet music (whether between the staves or below the score) does not make a score with no words a hymn. -- Chucktalk Giffen 09:01, 27 November 2007 (PST)
Also, no matter what the policy is going to be, there will be plenty of pages that will have to be changed, not just the approx. 75 John mentions. -- Chucktalk Giffen 09:08, 27 November 2007 (PST)
In passing, may I say that I am not entirely happy with the (to me, unfortunate) term "hymn setting" ... which really should be something like "hymn tune setting" or "hymn tune harmonization" or "hymn tune arrangement." What bothers me most about the removal of the word "tune" from "hymn tune setting" is that, to the uninitiated user, it might well have the wrong connotation. The problem is that, to many, many people in the music world, "setting" refers to the setting of a text to music; hence, a "hymn setting" would connote the setting of a religious text to music.
Finally, in many cases, hymn tunes are composed with a specific harmonization/arrangement ... ie., in the present parlance, they are at the same time "hymn tunes" and "hymn tune settings". Eucharisticus, mentioned above, is just such an example.
-- Chucktalk Giffen 06:59, 27 November 2007 (PST)
You're quite right Chuck, I agree entirely (this problem was kind of at the back of my mind). So which one should we have?
  • Hymn tune setting
  • Hymn tune harmonization
  • Hymn tune arrangement
I prefer something with the word "harmonisation" in it (or Harmonization for you Yanks :-) ) I don't think you can get clearer than that. To me, arrangement suggests that something else has been done other than harmonise. --Bobnotts talk 08:00, 28 November 2007 (PST)


This seems to be under control (see Category:Hymn meters) but which pages should be categorised with meters? I advocate just hymn tune pages. --Bobnotts talk 09:38, 16 November 2007 (PST)

I would like to emphasise at this stage that I believe that we shouldn't have meter cats on all hymn related pages - only on hymn tune pages. This is because when you go to the category for a particular meter, you don't want to see a list of all hymns that use that meter - you want a list of hymn tunes from which the hymn pages are linked. In the future, if we have many more hymn pages, this could get wildly out of control unless we just have hymn tune pages listed there. --Bobnotts talk 08:11, 28 November 2007 (PST)

Consider how Cyber Hymnal catagorizes 6,600 hymns there

It is probably useful to have a look at the way the Cyber Hymnal has organized Hymns and Hymn tunes. After all they have 6,600 hyms catagorized there. Perhaps by understanding their categorization we can better plan what We need to have so we won't get locked in.

I strongly hope that we are not going to try to compete with the CyberHymnal - or simply take from their collection and put their copies of tunes up here (there are already several, if not many, websites that regurgitate the CyberHymnal tunes ... just as there are many websites that regurgitate Wikipedia information). -- Chucktalk Giffen 09:36, 27 November 2007 (PST)

I don't want to attempt to compete with Cyber Hymnal. I do want to incorporate Hymns into CPDL in the most robust way. Perhaps we can learn from the their functionality ? This section was just meant to delineate what they have - not be a bulleted list of faults. Johnhenryfowler 10:08, 27 November 2007 (PST)

1. A hymn tune and set of lyrics go together to make a Hymn. The lyrics and the tune both have "creators"

We address this by naming both -- Chucktalk Giffen 09:36, 27 November 2007 (PST)

2. A set of lyrics may be commonly sung with several hymn tunes ( because their have the same meter ) The usual pairing at Cyber Hymnal ( CH ) is the one that automatically plays, and the pictures of the author of the lyrics and the composer of the hymn tune appear (if available). The "alternative" hymn tunes are listed, along with their composer, score file, and midi.

When and if more than one tune is used for a hymn at CPDL, we can move the text to a separate Text-translations page with links to the different settings (and tunes). We can also link to other tunes from a given hymn page. -- Chucktalk Giffen 09:36, 27 November 2007 (PST)

3.At CH the music can looked up by looking up a "person" in the main menu. All the hymn tunes which have that person as either the composer of the Hymn tune, or the author of the lyrics appear in a list under this "Person" Clicking on a Hymn tune brings you to the page for that hymn tune. (It may be an alternative tune, or a main tune for the lyrics on the page) Hymn tunes are uniquely named to avoid need for disambiguation.

Unfortunately, the naming of hymn tunes is not a universally (or even generally) recognized thing, at least for some tunes. Composers, lyricists, arrangers, harmonizers, etc. which are relevant to any kind of choral/vocal music represented at CPDL (and some that aren't) can and usually are represented by their own pages, which can be found through the search mechanism simply by typing the name. -- Chucktalk Giffen 09:36, 27 November 2007 (PST)

4.At CH the music can also be looked up by looking up a "meter" in the main menu. When a meter is selected a page with all the Hymn tunes using that meter are displayed. In some special cases only a single tune is listed, and in other cases ( such as the Meter "CM" ) hundreds of hymn tunes are displayed. "St. Michael" becomes "St. Michael SSWesley" in case where there is another tune with the name "St, Michael"

Consult Category:Hymn meters and click on any meter listed. There, you can also obtain listings by the number of lines. -- Chucktalk Giffen 09:36, 27 November 2007 (PST)

5.At CH the music can also be looked up by looking up a "Tune by name" in the main menu. In this case the multiple Hymn names are presented for the tune they go with. Going to the Hymn page by clicking on this link will answer whether this is the main set of lyrics, or an alternative set for this tune.

Consult Category:Hymn tunes. -- Chucktalk Giffen 09:36, 27 November 2007 (PST)

6.The topical nature of the lyrics is dealt with by the main menu choice, "Topics", where hymns (with the primary lyrics) are categorized by their nature of the lyric, Temperance, Hope, etc. Here the the Hymn Name is used. (Not the "Tune name").

This is beyond the scope of CPDL, as far as I am concerned. I refer you to "A Prairie Home Companion" for differences amongst the nature of religious views on the same subject (Garrison Keillor is fond of giving the contrast for Minnesota based Scandanavian Lutherans). -- Chucktalk Giffen 09:36, 27 November 2007 (PST)

7. A Hymn Tune may have a name, but no composer. (See Picardy) The tune may also have a set of lyrics that was historically associated with it, but now is not the "Common" lyrics. ( Picardy would have french carol lyrics...)

We might just have to use "Anonymous" in this case, as we have done elsewhere. -- Chucktalk Giffen 09:36, 27 November 2007 (PST)

Johnhenryfowler 15:34, 16 November 2007 (PST)

Possible organization of Hymns within CPDL

"Hymn-Works-page" ---> Hymn-Name ( composer/harmonizer/arranger ) with Category for: (Meter), (Hymn-Tune-Name), (Hymn-Lyric-Topic) (Hymn-Works-page must have lyrics associated with it, and the score would have lyrics in it.)

Sorry, John, but I don't agree with using the Composer of the Hymn tune for a hymn. It is traditional in nearly every hymnal to give credit to the composer/harmonizer/arranger of the tune. Who would you have listed in parentheses in the title of the following hymns whose tune is Old hundredth (all available at CPDL)?
-- Chucktalk Giffen 06:31, 17 November 2007 (PST)
I guess I wasn't saying what I meant to say. I've incorporated your term above. (This is the person that coupled the lyrics with the hymn tune, right ?) :Johnhenryfowler 07:37, 17 November 2007 (PST)

"Hymn-Tune-Page" ---> Tune-Name ( Composer-of-the-Hymn's-Tune ) with Category for: (Meter) (Hymn-Tunes-page must have NO lyrics associated with it, and the score (if present) would NOT have lyrics in it, and might be displayed at top of page.)

The above data structure fails to identify the primary lyrics for a hymn-tune, or the primary hymn-tune for a set of lyrics (except where there is only a single hymn-tune associated with a set of lyrics, or visa-versa. ) The Meter is less problematic, since the picking of a tune or a lyric fixes the meter. The above structure would make it difficult pick a different tune for a given set of lyrics, but perhaps that's ok.

Johnhenryfowler 05:40, 17 November 2007 (PST)

I WOULD suggest that a hymn tune page would include in the general information a list of texts known to be associated with the tune. Noel Stoutenburg 1836 GMT 17 November, 2007.

Noel - This would be accomplished (automatically) by selecting the category of the "Hymn-tune", and since it is categorized in the Hymn page, a list of all hymn-names associated with this hymn-tune would appear. Kind of like what happens when the subcategory of "Carols" is selected and you see a list of all carols. (This is by virtue of each carol having the category "Carol" in each of the works pages.) Johnhenryfowler 12:14, 17 November 2007 (PST)

I SUBMIT THAT HAVING the list of alternate associated texts on the hymn setting page seems quicker, and more "user friendly". It avoids unnecessary mouseclicks, sort time, and pageloads, forcing the user to click on a category to see the alternate texts would require. Noel Stoutenburg 1301 GMT 18 November, 2007.

I'm curious who would research, and do the special editing involved to make this happen? I favor an automated system such as the category mechanism offers us. It doesn't require any special editing of the works pages. Johnhenryfowler 06:23, 18 November 2007 (PST)

IN RESPONSE I would note two things. First, the researcher would be the same without regard to whether the information is presented as a category on which the information seeker needs to click to see the information, or whether the text incipits are included on the page, so that the seeker merely needs to scroll down the page. As far as what the identity of the researcher might be, it would be the same as the rest of the Choral WIKI, (and for that matter, BIG WIKI, too) anyone who wished to register to edit, and who had a bit of information to add. A bit like the other information on a page; some composers have merely a framework of biographical information on the WIKI, while others have essays which are significangly more comprehensive, because in the latter case, someone had the information at hand, and thought it worth sharing on this WIKI. Second, while the the category mechanism might be "more" automatic in that it arguably involves less keystrokes by editors than typing out the incipit of a text, because the category needs to be edited into the page the same way the incipit would be, the category is no more automatic than the category. Further, as I write this, it seems to me that listing the information in the page as I propose makes it easier to provide somewhat more comprehensive information, most notably the source in which the association is made. While I understand how one could use the category system to permit the user to view alternative texts by clicking on the category, I don't presently see that the category system, as implemented on this WIKI will provide the source. Noel Stoutenburg 0934 GMT 19 November, 2007.

Sorry, I don't understand this. What are the possible sub-categories of Hymn-tune ? I would favour having a space for the list of known texts in the general information area which could be expanded as people identify/want additional texts. Having 200 separate pages with separate texts for Old Hundredth doesn't seem efficient. Tim Henderson 12:52, 17 November 2007 (PST)
It was just an example of how you can use a category to make a grouping (in the main CPDL menu under "Music Scores" you can select "sub-categories" from the text at the top (it's imbedded in the text), and one of these is "Carols". To make any piece of music appear in the list of carols you put Category:Carols in the page, and then the work's name appears in the carol list.) This same thing can be accomplished for lyrics for the same hymn-tune by using a <tune-name>. The subcategory of the hymn-tunes would be a list of all hymn-names that share a particular hymn-tune. This same mechanism is in place for hymn meters. Johnhenryfowler 15:28, 17 November 2007 (PST)
The device you suggest for Category:Hymn-tune|<tune-name> does not work that way, John. the second part following the | (<tune-name>) will cause the text to be sorted according to <tune-name>'s alphabetization, but the <tune-name> will not appear, and <tune-name> will not be a subcategory of Category:Hymn-tune. Users often mistake the fact that information following a | in a Category specification will only serve as a sort key for the entry. -- Chucktalk Giffen 11:58, 23 November 2007 (PST)

Lilypond excerpts for hymn tunes

Following Raf's implementation of inline Lilypond excerpts (See the Mozart Ave verum corpus), Philip Legge posted a Lilypond excerpt for Old hundredth. Sometime after March of this year, I added a few Lilypond excerpts for other hymn tunes, but these were lost in the crash. Following the crash, from time to time I have tried to repost those excerpts and others, but to no avail, since the Lilypond interpreter no longer seems to be available. For hymn tunes (melody only, no harmony or text), having a Lilypond version of tunes posted on their hymn tune pages would be a nice addition, making it very clear to users just what the tune is. -- Chucktalk Giffen 06:56, 20 November 2007 (PST)

I HAVE NOT yet learned Lilypond, so when I wanted to show the equalist and rhythmic versions of Machs_mit_mir_Gott_87._87._88._(Johann_Hermann_Schein) I created ~.jpg file of the melody. When we had problems some fifteen months or so ago with certain MIME types not displaying correctly one of these ~.jpg files was affected, too, to I commented them out so that they don't appear in ordinary page views. If one edits the page, however, one can see how I applied them. I prepared similar ~.jpg files for St. Flavian, but I don't think I ever edited them into the page. Noel Stoutenburg 1850 GMT 20 November, 2007.

I've considered mapking JPG files from PDF's using one of the standard converters available, but I've refrained from it, in part, because the JPG files would be considerably larger than the corresponding Lilypond code. -- Chucktalk Giffen 12:57, 20 November 2007 (PST)
FWIW, I DID it mainly as an experiment. Besides this, the problem with corrupting the file types (which affected the German Flag image for a time) also would (in fact, did) cause havoc with music image files, too. Noel Stoutenburg 1411 GMT 21 November, 2007

Lilypond seems to have been restored

I just noticed that Raf has been working in the ChoralWiki:Sandbox, and that the Lilypond plugin/extension seems to have been restored and is working again. -- Chucktalk Giffen 12:07, 23 November 2007 (PST)

It does indeed, thank you, Raf! I've just added excerpts for Duke Street and McShane. Hope they're both correct - my first attempt at using Lilypond but then it's very intuitive. What does everyone think about slurs? I haven't put any in either but I know that Duke Street at least needs them... I guess it depends sometimes which words you're using as to whether there should be slurs or not... --Bobnotts talk 07:20, 24 November 2007 (PST)
I added the slurs to denote proper phrasing and meter. Thanks for adding those tunes! -- Chucktalk Giffen 08:13, 24 November 2007 (PST)
I've just created a new help page, category, and template for LilyPond excerpts on Hymn Tune pages. I propose that wherever there isn't the hymn tune melody on the tune page, the template {{NoMelody}} should be used, in the same way as the NoText template is on all new score pages (see Airedale). There is a difference from the NoText template, though, and that is that the NoMelody template adds the appropriate pages to a category of pages which need the melody adding (link above). --Bobnotts talk 10:46, 24 November 2007 (PST)
I've noticed some recently added hymn-tune pages with no (composer) in their name. Shouldn't "Airedale" be titled "Airedale (Charles Villiers Stanford)" ? Under Hymn Tune heading above Bob suggested "I would have the following format: "Tune_name_(Composer/Source)" for clarity ". Are we doing something different with Hymn Tune pages ? Johnhenryfowler 08:37, 27 November 2007 (PST)
I think that Rob (and others, including myself) have refrained from adding (Composer/Source) to the tile of Hymn tune pages, pending our reaching a consensus that this the way we should go. It would not be much fun to move all those pages to another format for the title, only to have to move them back. For my part, I think that the consensus actually has been reached that (Composer/Source) should be included. -- Chucktalk Giffen 08:51, 27 November 2007 (PST)
I'm afraid I'm going to backtrack on what I said earlier in the discussion on the subject of naming hymn tune pages. As you pointed out, Chuck, hymn tunes are often harmonised by the same person who wrote the tune. Where would we be then? We would have "Hymn tune name (Composer)" as the title of the tune page and "Hymn tune name (Harmoniser - same person)" as the title of the harmonisation page. Disambiguation could be used but I believe that the problem would be simplied considerably by having the following naming policy:
  • Hymn tune pages - "Hymn tune name"
  • Harmonised tune pages - "Hymn tune name (Harmoniser)"
There will be a few ambiguity isses with a couple of hymn tune pages (such as "Welsh" which I believe is a tune name) but many fewer than if we go with "Hymn tune name (Composer)" and "Hymn tune name (Harmoniser)" --Bobnotts talk 08:17, 28 November 2007 (PST)
I agree with Bob here. Still we need a method to handle Disambiguation. How would you add John Stainer's Hymn Tune "Jerusalem", when Parry has the same tune name ? There are other potential entries: Jerusalem (Gros­ve­nor), Jerusalem (Pur­day), Jerusalem (Stan­i­forth) ... (Perhaps they all qualify as "Harmonised tune pages" so we can use the ( harmonizer ) to uniquely identify each ) A quick scan at CyberHymnal shows this duplicate tune name problem exists, but it's fairly rare. See: - then select A ie/ (almsgiving) by both Wesley and Dykes

Johnhenryfowler 08:30, 28 November 2007 (PST)

If the composer of a hymn tune is also the harmonizer, then the hymn tune pages and the composer's harmonization page should be combined, with the original composer's harmonization given right above a section ==Other harmonizations==. That way, we can keep the composer in the title of a hymn tune page. I had planned to do something just like this with my tunes "Rasmus" and "McShane" (and soon "Corde natus", not yet posted). Also, it will serve to distinguish hymn tunes with the same name but different composers/sources, such as the examples mentioned by John, above.
-- Chucktalk Giffen 08:49, 28 November 2007 (PST)

Writing from a state of confusion

Despite Chuck's valiant effort to bring some sense of order to the discussion, I fear that I am still confused about where we stand on a consensus about tiles of pages for hymn tunes, hymn settings, hymns, and hymn-anthems. At the moment, my preference for titles on these pages is

Hymn tune: Hymn tune name (Composer) [Note: if the composer of the tune is unknown, the source should be listed instead; if the tune is from a source where it did not originally have a distinct name, the name of the first associated text should be used. I believe both of these conventions are customary.]

Hymn setting: Hymn tune name (Arranger) [Generally speaking, there should not be lyrics on a hymn tune page; however, a tune which has an underlay which is not immediately obvious to the casual user might have one stanza interlined to show underlay).

Hymn: Name of text (Hymn tune).

Reviewing a number of the items in my collection of hymnals and songbooks, I find these to be most consistent with existing "dead tree" practices, and therefore most familiar to users.

Hymn anthems should be treated like anthems--the name of the Incipit of the text, and the name of the arranger. The name of the tune should be prominent on the page, in a place about which we can have a discussion at another time, and in another page. Noel Stoutenburg 1411 GMT 21 November, 2007

Except for your preference for titling a hymn page, we are pretty much in agreement. But for a hymn (even one with a hymn tune name such as Old hundredth), I think it is more important to have the harmonizer/arranger in parentheses in the title. Once again, I refer to the settings of Old hundredth given above. They are three quite distinct arrangements. Another possibility, which is hinted at on my composer page (and put forth in discussions quite some time back) is to use the following form:
  • Name_of_text [Tune_name] (Composer/Harmonizer/Arranger)
If the Tune_name is absent (as with many more recent hymns) or the same as the Name_of_text, the bracketed Tune_name may be omitted. This has the advantage of usually getting three important pieces of information into the title.
Otherwise, I much prefer simply: Name_of_text (Composer/Harmonizer/Arranger).
-- Chucktalk Giffen 07:34, 22 November 2007 (PST)

IF ONE TAKES to account, though, that there is a significant number of composers who have composed multiple tunes in the same meter, while there is a far fewer number of hymns where more than one hymn tune has the same name, it is less ambiguous on the whole to name the tune in the title, and identify the composer of the tune in the page, than to name the composer in the title, and the tune in the page. As to the multiple harmonizations on "Old hundredth", I'm favor considering descants and fauxbourdon arrangements as supplemental material and naming them on the "main" hymn setting page, unless the setting is particularly arranged to suit a particular text (as in the Giffen and Vaughan Williams settings of Old hundredth, which I'm inclined to classify as "Hymn Anthems". I have no objection to devising some means of including both the tune name, and the composer / harmonizer / arranger, but my recollection is that it was consensus that a page title should not have both a bracketed and a parenthetical element. Noel Stoutenburg 0400 GMT 23 November, 2007.

Ummmm, I harmonized my setting of Old hundredth is as a hymn (setting), not a hymn anthem ... and even intended that it be used with a different (still copyright text).
THIS MAY BE AN issue of semantics. I'm attempting to apply the definitions originally given by Bob Notts at the top of this page for hymn settings and hymn anthems. I am remembering (perhaps incorrectly--happens with increasing frequency these days) that in composing your harmonies to Bourgeois' Psalm tune known in the English speaking world as "Old 100th" that you composition intended that specific stanzas be sung to specific harmonies, as a means of enhancing or reinforcing particular parts of the text. "Hymn Anthem" is not my first choice for designating such a composition as yours, but there does not yet seem to be a clear consensus in the greater musical community about exactly how to describe this category of material, and "hymn anthem" works as well as any of the other contenders. Using that term, or some other, and serves the not only the purpose of informing the user that the work is not a single harmony to be repeated as many times as needed, but instead is a work which requires advance preparation, as would be expected if the work was to be sung by the choir, on the one hand, and but also crediting the composer / arranger of the work. In my view, Stanford's original setting of Engelberg is a Hymn Anthem: the accompaniment is comprised of six variations, and there are four separate instructions of specific performance methods: unison with accompaniment, four parts (preferably unaccompanied), trebles only, men only, and unison with descant. Noel Stoutenburg 2123 GMT 23 November, 2007.
To me, the three harmonizations of Old hundredth in O love, how deep are just that - three harmonizations. Yes, they are thematically linked and the hymn is sung with each harmonization in succession (with two or more stanzas in each harmonization). I come from a tradition in which it is often the case that the organist/choir director/minister of music sometimes changes to different harmonizations and employs occasional descants in the singing of hymns. Before the crash, I posted these three harmonizations (without text) and will do so again. They may be used separately or together, as in the present case. This particular hymn arrangement was first sung at a Lenten service in the spring of 2005 ... no choir was present. I rest my case. -- Chucktalk Giffen 06:43, 24 November 2007 (PST)
The whole point of having hymn, settings, and hymn tunes classified by meter is to make these listable on a single page (the category page for the particular meter). I come down very strongly on the side of at very least having the composer / arranger / harmonizer of a hymn or hymn (setting) in the title, which is how vocal/choral music is treated uniformly throughout the rest of CPDL. The case of hymns should be no different. Moreover, since, without the text, a hymn would become a hymn setting and hence have the composer / arranger / harmonizer in the title, then the hymn (with the text) cannot be deprived of having this information in the title ... an even greater state of confusion, it would seem.
-- Chucktalk Giffen 23:31, 22 November 2007 (PST)

If I may return to your point above, Noel, you suggest that Hymn setting pages should be named in the following way: "Hymn tune name (Arranger)". I see this being problematic if we decide (as I believe we should) that all hymn settings of the same tune should be on the same page. May I suggest an alternative? We have "Hymn tune name (Composer/Source)" for Hymn setting pages and just "Hymn tune name" for the tune page then we could have all harmonisations on the same page. I know it's not ideal and could cause problems with ambiguity and that I've suggested that we should have "Hymn tune name (Composer/Source)" as page titles for Hymn tune pages above but I don't see any alternative... I really don't think that we should have different harmonisations on different pages as it means that users have to go to many different score pages to get what they want. --Bobnotts talk 05:03, 23 November 2007 (PST)

MY UNDERSTANDING THAT there was a developing consensus that hymn tune settings were to be on separate pages informed my suggestion that the title of a page for a hymn tune setting include the arranger, rather than the source / composer. My own personal inclination is to have one page for a hymn tune, using the name of the tune as given by the composer or in the initial source, or lacking a hymn tune name in the English style, using the incipit for the first associated text. In the event that the identity of the composer of the melody is no longer known, then I would favor including the source of the tune in place of the composer in the page title. I would favor including all arrangements of the tune (including descants and fauxbourdons) on the same page, crediting the various composers / arrangers (or again, if the identity of the composer / arranger is not known, the source). I am prepared to accept, especially in the case where there may be peculiarities of word underlay, one stanza of lyrics in pages to demonstrate how the words fit. Noel Stoutenburg 1854 GMT 23 November, 2007.

Attempt to define where we are with proposed Hymn Structure

Is this an accurate description of our current structure ?

Page_Name - Description of page

  "format of page TITLE"
         Data item(s) in the page

Hymn tune - melody as a Lilypond Unison stave - no lyrics

  "Tune name (Composer/Source/Arranger)"
         (Edition information as normal) 
         Date the hymn tune first published
         Categorized as Hymn 
         Tune name (category)
         Meter (category)
         List of Hymn setting pages using this tune
         List of Hymn works pages using this tune

Hymn setting - (melody and harmony - Score has NO lyrics))

         (Edition information as normal) 
         Date the hymn setting first published
         Tune name [Link to Hymn Tune Page]
         Link to most common Lyrics/Hymn Page
         Link to alternate Lyrics/Hymn Page
         Meter (category)

Hymn - (melody, harmony and lyrics)

         (Edition information as normal) 
         Name of larger work using this hymn
         Date the hymn first published/Hymnal name
         Tune name [Link to Hymn Tune Page]
         Meter (category)

Hymn-Anthem - (an extension of a hymn, usually including elaborate accompaniment, harmonies that vary verse to verse, descants, etc. (eg. Vaughan Williams' adaptation of "Old Hundreth - All people that on earth do dwell") ).

         (Edition information as normal) 
         Tune name [Link to Hymn Tune Page]
         Meter (category)

Johnhenryfowler 20:47, 26 November 2007 (PST)

More-or-less John's definitions with some details

Here is a somewhat modified/updated version of John's description, with some details spelled out more clearly (I hope!). Thanks to John for trying to ennunciate just where we are. -- Chucktalk Giffen 08:36, 27 November 2007 (PST)

This is very useful. Thanks, Chuck. Under Hymn Tune did you want

[[Category:Hymn settings]] ? or Category:Hymn tunes  ?

Johnhenryfowler 10:04, 27 November 2007 (PST)

Oops, fixing that now, and I have tentatively categorized hymn settings in Category:Hymn tunes (I wonder how much flak there will be from that!). Thanks, John. -- Chucktalk Giffen 12:15, 27 November 2007 (PST)

Very useful to have this writen out, Chuck - thanks! My comments:

Hymn tune:

  • As mentioned above, I disagree with having the meter cats on all but the tune pages.
  • I believe the title should be "Hymn tune" only (see above).
  • Once the DPL extension has been updated, I can design a template which will automate the lists of links to pages which use the tune. (it would not be possible to have the links to files with icons if the list is automated)

Hymn setting:

  • What would the code [[<title of Hymn tune page>:<Hymn tune>]] do? Do you mean [[<title of Hymn tune page>|<Hymn tune>]] Chuck?
  • "[[Category:Hymn tunes]] (an alternative might be Category:Hymn settings, but I think it's better simply to categorize settings with tunes)" May I ask why? I'd prefer separate categories.
  • Again, I don't believe that we should have meter cats on any page except hymn tune pages.


  • If the edition(s) does have a descant, include Category:Descants
  • [[Category:<meter>]] (as above)
  • [[<title of Hymn tune page>:<Hymn tune>]] (as above)


  • [[<title of Hymn tune page>:<Hymn tune>]] (as above.... you get my drift now!)

--Bobnotts talk 08:33, 28 November 2007 (PST)

Hymn tune - melody as a Lilypond Unison stave - no lyrics

"Tune name (Composer/Source)"
LilyPond rendition of the melody
Composer/Source: (with date of first publication, if known)
Meter: in the format [[:Category:66. 86. D (S.M.D)|66. 86. D (S.M.D)]]
== Harmonizations ==
links to Hymn etting pages using this tune with links to sheet, sound, and source files (if single editions)
== Settings with text ==
list of links to Hymn works pages using this tune with links to sheet, sound, and source files
== Hymn-Anthem settings == - list to Hymn-Anthem pages using this tune with links to sheet, sound, and source files
[[Category:Hymn tunes]]

Hymn setting - melody and harmony - Score has NO lyrics

(Edition information as normal)
Tune name: in the format [[<title of Hymn tune page>:<Hymn tune>]]
Meter: in the format [[:Category:86. 86. D (C.M.D)|86. 86. D (C.M.D)]]
First published: (if known)
== Settings with text ==
list of links to Hymn works pages using this setting with links to sheet, sound, and source files
== Other common texts ==
list of texts commonly used with this tune (with links to pages containing these texts, where available)
[[Category:Hymn tunes]] (an alternative might be Category:Hymn settings, but I think it's better simply to categorize settings with tunes)

Hymn - melody, harmony and lyrics, possibly with optional descants

(Edition information as normal)
Title: <Title_of_text>
Tune name: in the format [[<title of Hymn tune page>:<Hymn tune>]]
Meter: in the format [[:Category:88. 88. D (L.M.D)|88. 88. D (L.M.D)]]
First published: (if known)
Lyricist/Hymnist/Poet/Text source:
Other information (as appropriate), such as Description: , optional Descants, name of any larger work(s) using this hymn.

Hymn-Anthem - an extension of a hymn, usually including elaborate accompaniment, harmonies that vary verse to verse, descants, etc. (eg. Vaughan Williams' adaptation of "Old Hundreth - All people that on earth do dwell").

(All the usual Edition and works information typical to other choral works pages), with inclusion of:
Lyricist/Hymnist/Poet/Text source:
Tune name: in the format [[<title of Hymn tune page>:<Hymn tune>]]
Meter: in the format [[:Category:10 10. 10 10 with refrain|10 10. 10 10 with refrain]]