Talk:Christus factus est
Gradual vs antiphon
OK, with the fuss I've made over page titles, maybe this it is not yet the time to bring this up agains. There are two similar texts, one a gradual, and one an antiphon. The text presently on the page is the gradual. Edition 1240 is a text which correctly links to this page; edition 2203 is the antiphon, and should not.
ns 03:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- Hi, Thanks for pointing this out! in this case, they should probably be on the same page, with an explanation which clearly points out the difference. From what I can gather, the antiphon is merely the first two lines of the gradual (or line and a half). As such, it appears to be a subset (for the purpose of translation). Raf Ornes 05:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, you're right. I got started thinking about it; started organizing it, and then got called away, and saved my work in a hurry, before I had a chance to fully check my facts, and frame my answer. Upon checking, I find out that the words are the same, but they are used differently, and I concede do belong on the same page after all.
- I revised the translation, and placed the settings I could identify in the section in which they seemed to belong. Those I have not yet determined which is which, I left near the top of the page.
- The Cannicciari setting is ambiguous, and based only on the absence of a double bar between measures 10 and 11, I have listed it as a gradual. The key change in measure 10, from g minor to G major, however, leads me to suspect that this may actually be an antiphon, and that the editor overlooked, or omitted, a double bar present in the source.
- ns 2006 April 14 06:48 (UTC)
Gradual vs antiphon
I got rather confused by this page; the Anerio setting, listed as an antiphon, uses the whole text and is described on its own page as a gradual. The Lobo setting, listed as uncertain, is described in the title as an antiphon for Good Friday and uses the abbreviated text. Wouldn't it be correct to say:
- This text is used both as a gradual and, during the triduum, as an antiphon in place of the responsory: on Holy Saturday in full, on Good Friday ending at the word crucis, and on Maundy Thursday ending at usque ad mortem.
? Then the works could just be listed together with a brief note identifying the antiphons. Richard Mix 20:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- Hi Richard, you're right, the page is quite confusing as it is now. I don't see the need to separate the works in these two categories since the text is basically the same. Will add your explanation to the page description, it's more concise and clear. Please improve the page even further if you wish. Thank you. —Carlos 23:23, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- OK! Sorry about all the red links; it seems that the more general reader is going to need help. Should the articles be created, or should the links be pointed at an external wiki? Richard Mix 06:32, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
- Hi Richard, some of the links were created as redirects to their categories, where a short explanation could be added if necessary. For the remaining links, if you feel that they are necessary to clarify thinks, I suggest linking them to the corresponding Wikipedia articles. (ex.: [[wikipedia:Easter Triduum|triduum]]). —Carlos 14:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks; that suggestion (consolidating explanations as much as possible, as well as putting external links on category pages) makes sense to me; still looks like a big job! It's fustrating that clinking on a red link doesnt bring up a search. Only by accident did I find the preexisting category:Office Hymn, er, Category:Office hymn (&!@%#^$@&#$!!!) Category:Office hymns (whew!) Richard Mix 01:17, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Isn’t versus the wrong term for response in the Latin text??? It should be responsorius. The German word for response is Responsum. —Robert Urmann 01:20, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oh sure, my mistake. —Carlos 01:33, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
- Don’t mind—it has been there before (wasn’t your mistake). —Robert Urmann 01:36, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
- I'm very unsure of myself, but I recall "respond" as being the English noun used. But doesnt this only apply to the use as an antiphon? Surely in the gradual it is "verse"? Richard Mix 05:57, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
The Latin term is responsorium, containing a responsum (the part which is repeated) and a verse or versus (text for the soloist). Cordially, joachim 12:23, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oho, I'm almost awake now and see I got things backwards: The benedictus is always sung with an antiphon as one would expect, and the gradual is the responsory, minus the respond after the verse, which is still the verse, isnt it? It's so labled on p283 of the 1990 Gregorian Missal. Richard Mix 01:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)