User talk:Carlos

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tenebrae

Hi, I created Category:Tenebrae before later stumbling on Category:Lamentations of Jeremiah, which doesnt have a parent category yet. How would you like to handle the merge? Richard Mix 07:07, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Merge complete and Tenbrae deleted. -- Chuck_talk Giffen_♫ 17:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi Chuck, Shouldnt Tenebrae have become a redirect? I cant see what was 'merged'; Lamentations of Jeremiah could use a wikilink (Tenebrae (sevice)) or explanation of the office and a See also category:Tenebrae responsories at the very least. The other problem is that it (or rather category:Lamentations of Jeremiah) has only "hidden categories" and dosnt appear in category:Sacred music, category:Sacred music by season or category:Holy Week. Richard Mix 20:36, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Richard has a valid point, in fact the category:Lamentations of Jeremiah was created not as a part of the Sacred music by season navigation system, but rather as a support category for the DPL code inside of the Lamentations of Jeremiah text page. Perhaps the idea of having a separate Category:Tenebrae wasn't so bad after all. —Carlos [[[:Template:Carlos]] ] 21:45, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

In that case, why not simply unhide Lamentations of Jeremiah and also make it a subcategory of Sacred music and of Holy Week? -- Chuck_talk Giffen_♫ 21:50, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

In doing so, all works manually added to this category will be automatically listed in the text page Lamentations of Jeremiah as sharing that text. Do all Tenebrae works take their texts from the book of Lamentations of Jeremiah? In such case this solution may work fine. —Carlos [[[:Template:Carlos]] ] 21:58, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I did some checking, and my understanding is that the Lamentations are separate from the Responsories, both being a part of the Roman rite Tenebrae. This is most clearly illustrated by looking at the tomasluisdevictoria.org page for the Officium Hebgdomadae Sanctae (Victoria composed complete settings for both the Lamentations and the Responsories. The Lamentations form the first lessons for the first Nocturn and have been set by many composers. The Responsories have been set by several composers, though not as many as for the Lamentations. This suggests that the two categories reference each other. They might be made subcategories of a separate Category:Tenebrae, but in keeping with the Wiki principle against an article being made a member of both a category and a subcategory of that category, I would not recommend making every Lamentaions or Responsory setting a subcategory of the parent Tenebrae category. On the other hand, I wonder if it is sufficient that both Lamentations of Jeremiah and Tenebrae responsories be subcategories of Holy Week? If we really do want Category:Tenebrae, containing these two as subcategories, then Tenbrae would have to be a subcategory of Holy Week, and the categorization of Lamentations and Responsories in Holy Week removed. Does this make sense? -- Chuck_talk Giffen_♫ 22:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Jeremiah is always used for the first nocturn, which appears the only one set to music, so that sounds viable. The Responsories are another matter, but could go in See Also. On the other hand, it might be more logical to discuss both together on a restored tenebrae page. At least having a redirect there might save someone else the trouble of recreating the page!

Wikipedia is a bit confused, with three articles Tenebrae moved from tenebrae (liturgy) to tenebrae (service) and music split between Lamentations of Jeremiah the Prophet and Genre of the Lamentations. Richard Mix 23:03, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm in doubt now about what's the best alternative (having Tenebrae as an intermediary subcategory under Holy Week or not). I'll let you guys decide this one, the Church feasts always confused me. ;) —Carlos [[[:Template:Carlos]] ] 02:47, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of overly nested categories. What if Tenebrae and category:Tenebrae responsories were merged and we had T-resp and Lamentations in Holy Week? Or better to merge the two into a single category:Tenebrae? Richard Mix 06:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Whenever Matins have 3 nocturns, the readings in the first nocturn are Old Testament, the remaining nocturns have readings from the New Testament and a church father. After every lecture, a responsorium prolixum or elaborate responsory follows (the other services in the office have responsoria breves). The Lamentations are the source for the readings in every first nocturn of the triduum. The responsories don't really have any sort of direct relationship to them, so putting them in a joint category (apart from the general Holy Week) doesn't seem to serve any useful liturgical purpose. Just my five cents. joachim 07:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your mail

Thanks Carlos (specially for making the effort to write it in Spanish, that was a great gesture I a appreciate a lot). I decided to stop volunteering. I don't find the conditions at CPDL are proper for me to keep up with the job. Thank you again.-Saniakob 02:37, 3 August 2009 (UTC)